Prep says BR has a history of "UnderAchieving"

Re: Prep says BR has a history of "UnderAchieving"

feeds@kickapps.com (ss429) — Wed, 12 Nov 2008 13:33:01 PST

Prep,

My point was a lot of good teams Never even qualified to get a chance at a Championship in the '80's, nothing about BR.

Not at BBR-Musky game - just wanted to give you something to write about this beautiful fall day.

Morningweg, may have been the best the Lions have had since Wayne "I just love all these guys" Fontes! Would have liked to see the results if Millen left and Marty stayed.

Re: Prep says BR has a history of "UnderAchieving"

feeds@kickapps.com (prepseer) — Wed, 12 Nov 2008 10:55:17 PST

SS,

Were you at the BBR-Muskegon game? Have you seen the game tape? Or, are you relying on Muskegon fans' postings on M-Live for your information?

Muskegon had its Defensive starters in the game for most of the 4th Quarter. One of Rice's 4th Q TD's game against a hybrid 1st/2nd Team. After the one score with Musky still with a comfortable lead, TA put back the starting DBs and LBs and had a hybrid DL. Rice scored because they ran different formations/plays and had a greater intensity. Too bad it didn't happen earlier, the outcome might have been different. Posting that 4th string nonsense just makes you look ignorant. Or,were you just exaggerating to make a point. Truth be told, BBR played more non-startees in this game than Musky did.

Re: your comment about the 80's--can I infer that you are saying it was no big deal that an 8-1 BBR team didn't make the playoffs. How many of those 8-1 teams had 15+ Division 1...

Re: Prep says BR has a history of "UnderAchieving"

feeds@kickapps.com (ss429) — Wed, 12 Nov 2008 09:20:07 PST

Prep,

How soon we forget, it was Marty Morninweigh(sp) who took the wind in OT. I think he has been wrongfully blamed for his decision. The Lions defense had more of a chance to score than their offense! He was left with the cupboard bare and took the heat for Millen. May have been best bet for this Fav team of BG.

Also, you were the one that started all this "underachieving" stuff. Lest us not forget either that most of BR's points against Musky came in the last few minutes of the game when Musky had their 4th string defense playing! In the '80's many 8-1 and even 9-0 teams were left out of the playoffs.

Lakeland's Blake Heiman is quite the athlete in many other sports.

Re: Prep says BR has a history of "UnderAchieving"

feeds@kickapps.com (ColonelKVC) — Tue, 11 Nov 2008 20:10:37 PST

prepseer wrote:

The second key play was the fake punt call in the 2nd Quarter from the Lakeland 23 and the game tied 7-7. Who would call a fake punt from deep in your own territory on a 4th and 13. That's about as bad a call as Bobby Ross choosing to kick-off in overtime. Or, was that Wayne Fontes? Clint Penokie, the punter, ran for 13 yards. It was so close that a measurement was required. It was good by a link of the chain. You've heard that football is a game of inches. If Penokie runs one link less on the fake punt and BBR gets the ball on the Lakeland 36 yard line.

I don't know how much film Rice had on Lakeland, but Penokie has the green light to keep it if he thinks he can get it. He has done it several times this year and even last year. The only time he didn't do it? Against Milford, of course, because he is such a bad punter they had their kicker (#10) punt against...

Re: Prep says BR has a history of "UnderAchieving"

feeds@kickapps.com (prepseer) — Tue, 11 Nov 2008 10:41:39 PST

Bird,

That's a good assessment on your part. Public vs Private. Certainly possible. As a follower of the CHSL, I have seen this before. Of course, there's no way to prove it. As you suggest, it's just as likely that there were a couple bad refs in the crew. Not bad as in bad people, but incompetent in their job. The other possibility is that they simply had the philosophy to let the kids play. You see this more in basketball where a lot of fouls go uncalled. This should affect both teams. You might be right that you tend to notice the no calls more against your team.

I will say this, on the two most important calls in the game--the touchdowns that were nullified by penalties--the refs got it right. Both penalties were very obvious both live by the coaches on the sidelines and on the postgame film review. I'm not questioning either of those calls. The no-call on the roughing the punter is another story. Because the Rice blocker was...

Re: Prep says BR has a history of "UnderAchieving"

feeds@kickapps.com (ColonelKVC) — Mon, 10 Nov 2008 23:03:00 PST

prepseer wrote:
I knew before the game there might be a ref problem. I was talking to a Lakeland fan and he referred to one of the refs by name. How often do fans know the refs names. You can be assurred that the entire crew was probably from the Milford/White Lake area or at least from the general KLAA North area. Throw in the CHSL hatred/jealously and you have a potential bias combined with the ability to subtely control the game. Unfortunately, it happens all the time.

prep, I'd be willing to be it was more of a "public vs. private" deal, if there was any funny business. However, there probably wasn't. Bad refs make bad calls for both teams, but you're so steamed at the ones against your own team that you don't notice the ones against the opponent as much.

As far as similar crews, there was a totally unfamiliar crew at the Milford-Howell game. They were very...

Re: Prep says BR has a history of "UnderAchieving"

feeds@kickapps.com (kaycob) — Mon, 10 Nov 2008 15:09:14 PST

Prep, it's all relative. In years past, no one ever said that the CHSL was down when CC or BBR or OLSM rolled through the league on their way to a State Championship. No one ever thought to look at the league as a whole in some of those years because one of the big 3 was carrying the mantle. This year we have DLS carrying the mantle, but some see that as a down year for the rest as opposed to a stellar year for a dominating DLS team.

That said, the CHSL may surely be "down" this year overall, in comparison to some recent years, but at the end of the day, what is the difference if DLS gets to the finals, with CC & BBR in the playoffs and OLSM out - than OLSM making it's way to the finals with CC & BBR in the playoffs with DLS out?

Lasty, and as I stated on Mdead, there is a helluva alot more parody in High School football than I can ever remember.

Re: Prep says BR has a history of "UnderAchieving"

feeds@kickapps.com (prepseer) — Mon, 10 Nov 2008 14:45:13 PST

CC will be the pre-season favorite in the CHSL in 2009. I also like
BBR next year. I'd probably pick them 2nd, with the winner of the CC-BBR game in Week 4 determining the CHSL title.
If OLSM can bring in some fresh talent to support Bolden, I'd go with them 3rd. If Bolden has to do it by himself (along with Earnest Thomas), I'd move OLSM to 4th behind DLS. The Pilots have a major re-building to do. But, they have had competitive JV an Frosh teams recently, so I'm sure they will.

Everybody talks about the CHSL Central being down this year. When it's all said and done, I think it may be more down next year than this year.

Re: Prep says BR has a history of "UnderAchieving"

feeds@kickapps.com (kaycob) — Mon, 10 Nov 2008 13:12:32 PST

Well put, Blue. And I agree with your assesssment of CC 2009.

Re: Prep says BR has a history of "UnderAchieving"

feeds@kickapps.com (Blue) — Mon, 10 Nov 2008 12:57:57 PST

I'm saying Brother Rice underachieved based on your assessment of the team. I just thought Brother Rice was an average team this year-- it was your honor team that made me think they underachieved. ----

I have conceded that CC's playoff losses in recent seasons have been to better teams. ---

John Glenn in 1996 was one of the best teams in the state and better than CC, --- Walled Lake Western in 99 was the best team in Michigan, --- Ike was better than CC in 2000, ---- Milford was better than CC in 2005 --- Dakota was better than CC in 2007 and Stevenson was better than CC in 2008. ---

If CC does not make a run in 2009 with this group of juniors and sophomores next season --- then I will say they underachieved.

Re: Prep says BR has a history of "UnderAchieving"

feeds@kickapps.com (prepseer) — Mon, 10 Nov 2008 12:40:56 PST

Some are calling Rice underachievers. I guess because they didn't win a State Championship. I think you could argue that this year's BBR team actually overachieved. That is if you believe the pre-season prognosticators--from CHSL coaches, the media, and online bloggers. The consensus had Rice third or fourth in the CHSL Central. With tie-breakers, that's about where they finished. But, look what this 3rd place team achieved. They made the playoffs and beat the then 4th ranked team in the state in the first round. They held the current 3rd place team in the state to its lowest point total of the year and its narrowest victory margin. They scored more points against the current 1st place in the state team than any other team this year. They atoned for an earlier loss by beating OLSM in the Prep Bowl by a wider margin than they lost by earlier. They had the state's number one (in tackles) defensive player. They had the state's number one punter. They...

Re: Prep says BR has a history of "UnderAchieving"

feeds@kickapps.com (Blue) — Mon, 10 Nov 2008 12:39:02 PST

Adding to that I do enjoy Prep's site. And I do not believe I could pick a better all metro team.

Re: Prep says BR has a history of "UnderAchieving"

feeds@kickapps.com (Blue) — Mon, 10 Nov 2008 12:16:52 PST

Maybe I'm turning into the old guy who remembers everything from their time as being the greatest --- if that's the case, and this team was "far better" -- those teams I remember so fondly with Sofran, Brian Marshall, etc. must have been equivalent to this season's Plymouth, Troy, West Bloomfield, Franklin, etc.

Re: Prep says BR has a history of "UnderAchieving"

feeds@kickapps.com (kaycob) — Mon, 10 Nov 2008 12:10:44 PST

Blue, it is your remarks that make this Rice season all the more confusing and disappointing for me (and anyone else who knows this team with any intimacy). Your opinion of this team is based on what you saw on the field in a couple of games this year. I know this team from their Freshman year (undefeated) on up. Here is the thing that really confuses me.

This SR group, in my eyes, was loaded in almost every position, lacking only in one or two linemen and a QB. Knowing, at the time, that Popp and a couple of other Jr's would very much solidify and balance out his team, I thought the sky was the limit. You add Pickens and that was the icing on the cake.

Gelling, among the Sr group is not something that I would ever have viewed as an issue. That said, I have no idea if there were "issues" between the Sr class and the underclassmen.

All that said, for me it simply adds up to disappointment and some realistic expectations not being met.

Re: Prep says BR has a history of "UnderAchieving"

feeds@kickapps.com (prepseer) — Mon, 10 Nov 2008 12:09:06 PST

I didn't say the honor team players didn't perform well. They did. The team just didn't win. I listed several possible reasons why. Take your pick. As for the teams in the 90's. This year's team was far better than any of those teams. That's my opinion. I saw the teams in the 90's and this years as well.

Re: Prep says BR has a history of "UnderAchieving"

feeds@kickapps.com (Blue) — Mon, 10 Nov 2008 11:58:32 PST

Really? --- One Rice's better teams that didn't win one? ---- If that is the case they did under perform --- because I thought this looked like one of the weaker Brother Rice teams since I played at CC in the 1990s. --- Brother Rice never won anything when I was in school -- but I would say those teams that I played against and saw play while in school would plow over the 2008 squad. --- So are these kids on the honor team based on talent alone? Because if they were that talented then they didn't have great seasons, which should be the biggest factor in putting someone on an honor team.

Re: Prep says BR has a history of "UnderAchieving"

feeds@kickapps.com (prepseer) — Mon, 10 Nov 2008 11:51:50 PST

Kay,

Yes, this Rice team had to be one of the better ones that didn't win a State Championship. It just goes to show you how difficult it is to win the Title. It takes a lot of luck, in addition to the skilled players and coaches. I'm rooting for DLS to go all the way. They are going to have a tough time with Lowell or Muskegon. But, they can do it. I think DLS is an example of the kind of team that is not loaded with Division I players, but have good high school athletes and play well as a team.

Re: Prep says BR has a history of "UnderAchieving"

feeds@kickapps.com (prepseer) — Mon, 10 Nov 2008 11:47:32 PST

Blue,

Not a black and white issue. Lot's of reasons for teams losing games. Big time players underperform. The other team overperforms. The ball bounces the wrong way. Play calling was wrong. Injuries. You can have 75% of the team playing at an all star level, but one or two weak links allow the big play and cause the loss. I think your A or B example is much too simplistic.

I'm not going to analyze each Rice loss, nor will any of those losses affect the recognition that I've giving deserving players. There were some outstanding players on the BBR team this year and that's obviously the reason that the early playoff loss was so disappointing. I'll leave it to others to decide why Rice didn't go further. I can tell you this. There were more outstanding players on this year's team than on some of the State Championship teams at Rice. I guess that confirms the theory that it's the team, not the individuals that win...

Re: Prep says BR has a history of "UnderAchieving"

feeds@kickapps.com (kaycob) — Mon, 10 Nov 2008 11:43:33 PST

Prep,

Again, I have an affinity for the Rice Sr's and I would like to see thenm all with post season honors. Remember, I was (maybe wrongfully so)speaking more toward the question that was posed by Blue, as opposed to disputing your list. Actually, EV was a bad example in my post. I know thatEVhad a great year but when those in the papers try to do their post season teams and do so with balance in mind, my feeling is that you will not see EV on these teams, because they will err on the side of Cherocci. I think the same my happen vis-a-vis Benton/Watkins.

The more critical thing for me is not the individuals on this team, but the team as a whole. I thought this team would easily be one of the best in the state this year and based on that and knowing the kids the way that I do, this season has been nothing short of a disappointment in my eyes. The coaches and Sr's have to truly be down and befuddled on this Monday morning.

Re: Prep says BR has a history of "UnderAchieving"

feeds@kickapps.com (prepseer) — Mon, 10 Nov 2008 11:31:08 PST

Kay,

I agree with you. It is not easy to do these teams. I've said before that I probably shouldn't try. There's no doubt that some BBR players make it since I'm more familiar with them and I can recognize those that are deserving. It's harder to do that with other teams unless I've seen them multiple times. Not all teams post stats on Maxpreps. That's unfortunate, since I do use that as a resourse. It's very difficult to recognize lineman. That's another place where BBR may have an edge. Of course, I could wait until after the News and Free Press do their All Area Teams, then pick and choose from those players. I didn't want to do that. I'd rather err in putting too many BBR players on the team or missing someone who is deserving but didn't have the publicity so I would know about them, than just copying the newspaper teams.

As for the two players you mentioned. Miller is the type of player who deserves...

Prep says BR has a history of "UnderAchieving"

feeds@kickapps.com (ss429) — Sat, 08 Nov 2008 00:48:24 PST

As per his site @ prepseer.com

"BBR, with seven state championships to its credit and several more finals appearances also has a history of losing early in the playoffs to teams they should have beat............."