Should a team choose to "opt up" for competitive reasons?

Re: Should a team choose to "opt up" for competitive reasons?

feeds@kickapps.com (Searn) — Fri, 05 Jun 2009 20:13:22 PST

Harrison could actually be a decent example why not to commit to playing up (for long periods of time at least)....

During a long stretch Harrison could have played in any division and won titles ( though I don't believe as many as they did ) .... but today they have simply become a very good Division 2/3 program ... nothing that special. .... even programs like Harrison have down times ... so I'm not sure playing up for long terms is such a great idea for some programs ... but playing up for 2 year deals is not too much of a commitment to worry that your program will fall apart.

Re: Should a team choose to "opt up" for competitive reasons?

feeds@kickapps.com (Blue) — Thu, 04 Jun 2009 17:12:10 PST

Back in 1998(wow I'm getting old) --- there were two teams that were to be head and shoulders above the rest -- and both defending state champs.

Detroit Catholic Central --- 1997 Class AA Champs
Farmington Hills Harrison --- 1997 Class A Champs

Both teams were rated nationally to start the season (with CC being a few spots ahead at each update). There was a mini rivalry that year between two teams that have never played and have still never played to date.

Harrison players routinely showed up at CC games and sat themselves right behind the CC bench to actively root for someone to knock of the #1 rated Shamrocks --- as so they could gain that #1 status in Michigan --- Harrison fans went as far as to hold green signs proclaiming "CC Sucks" at a WWF wrestling event that showed up in Detroit that season --- there were anti CC signs put up at the Silverdome outside the gate by Harrison fans.

In the end both teams ran the...

Re: Should a team choose to "opt up" for competitive reasons?

feeds@kickapps.com (EastGuRu) — Thu, 04 Jun 2009 16:24:18 PST

Searn wrote:
By the way ... a legit reason why it wouldn't work to let a teams decide to play up at the end of the regular season ....

It would screw up the playoff points.

I don't know. That shouldn't be that big of a problem. Those points are calculated via computer based on the school being designated as a classB school (base of 64 points). All they would have to do is change the base to 80 points and recalculate. I believe that even then, it would only affect the schools that happened to defeat that "opting up" team (which couldn't be that many). Irregardless, even if it affected 200 schools, the computer could recalculate those in 1 second. As long as the decision is made prior to the final tabulation of playoff points, it really shouldn't matter. My thought on forcing teams to decide once they "qualified" was to avoid a team waiting for two more...

Re: Should a team choose to "opt up" for competitive reasons?

feeds@kickapps.com (ftballfan) — Thu, 04 Jun 2009 13:27:46 PST

The only school that should opt down is Marquette. They are the only Class A school in the UP. Time for the MHSAA to allow them to opt down to Class B.

Re: Should a team choose to "opt up" for competitive reasons?

feeds@kickapps.com (Searn) — Thu, 04 Jun 2009 10:39:09 PST

By the way ... a legit reason why it wouldn't work to let a teams decide to play up at the end of the regular season ....

It would screw up the playoff points.

Re: Should a team choose to "opt up" for competitive reasons?

feeds@kickapps.com (SnoozeToMe) — Wed, 03 Jun 2009 23:33:38 PST

EastGuRu wrote:
I also wonder: If you gave a 17 year old kid, who probably knows this is his last year to ever play organized football in his life, the option of staying in your assigned division and winning a championship vs. opting up and getting eliminated in the X round..............which would he choose? I don't know. Maybe a player who lurks here can answer that, because I'm sure it's alot easier for us old fogies to make a claim that we might not have made at 17.

That's the part I struggle with most. How dare we "old fogies" ask a 17 year old kid to greatly reduce his chance at a championship in his assigned division?

On the other hand, if opting up were alllowed on a yearly basis, that 17 year old kid probably already has one or two state titles already, and just may welcome the challenge. That kid is the reason why I'd have a very hard time accepting a...

Re: Should a team choose to "opt up" for competitive reasons?

feeds@kickapps.com (EastGuRu) — Wed, 03 Jun 2009 20:45:36 PST

No way on the "opt down" option. That would just be lame, not to mention unfair to smaller schools. After thinking about this for a while I would be fine with opting up solely for competitive reasons if you could make the decision some time late in the season, say right after you qualify for the playoffs but before your next game. IMO there are just too many unknowns before a season starts, much less before a season three years from now starts. This would also give a coach the chance to propose it to the kids on the team and let them decide. After all, it's their season, more so than the coaches or the fans.

Re: Should a team choose to "opt up" for competitive reasons?

feeds@kickapps.com (Searn) — Wed, 03 Jun 2009 17:07:45 PST

KleShreen wrote:
So should a team struggling in sports be able to opt down?

Hmmm ... probably not ... but chances are it wouldn't matter anyway ... .since in football a team really struggling probably wouldn't make the playoffs in most cases.

Re: Should a team choose to "opt up" for competitive reasons?

feeds@kickapps.com (Searn) — Wed, 03 Jun 2009 17:06:36 PST

EastGuRu wrote:

I just thought of something. We've been talking mostly about EGR but I'm thinking what would have happened to Lowell the past couple of years had they opted up to D1 (I know that's not currently possible). I'm betting they might have fared better as they may have matched up better with Rockford than Muskegon. Just a thought.

It's hard to say .... Rockford has been no slouch ... but you could be right about Lowell matching up better with Rockford compared to Muskegon.

In terms of your other question ... I think there's about a 55-60% chance EGR would end up rated higher at the end of the year making the D2 finals compared to winning D3. ... But there's a lot of things that could change that ... maybe EGR beats Lowell and goes 14-0 ... and Lowell goes 13-1 and wins D2 .... Unless...

Re: Should a team choose to "opt up" for competitive reasons?

feeds@kickapps.com (KleShreen) — Wed, 03 Jun 2009 16:26:08 PST

So should a team struggling in sports be able to opt down?

Re: Should a team choose to "opt up" for competitive reasons?

feeds@kickapps.com (EastGuRu) — Wed, 03 Jun 2009 14:08:15 PST

I just thought of something. We've been talking mostly about EGR but I'm thinking what would have happened to Lowell the past couple of years had they opted up to D1 (I know that's not currently possible). I'm betting they might have fared better as they may have matched up better with Rockford than Muskegon. Just a thought.

Re: Should a team choose to "opt up" for competitive reasons?

feeds@kickapps.com (Searn) — Wed, 03 Jun 2009 08:34:22 PST

EastGuRu wrote:
So, Searn, here's a question for you: Let's say EGR goes undefeated regular season and loses in the semi's of D2 to, let's say, BBR. BBR goes on to win state. Alternatively, EGR stays in D3 and beats OLSM for the D3 title. Which team gets ranked higher in the final 32?? Let's assume that OLSM and BBR split their regular season games or had a close single game.

I know there are lots of "it depends" scenarios, but humor me. My purpose is not to argue for staying in D3 but to see, honestly, where opting up would get them....at least on the final Searn32 rankings, which, BTW, I think is the only serious final rankings of teams in the whole state of Michigan (pat your back for that one man). I have a feeling that chasing rankings is not what Stuursma is about....but we (fans) sure crave them:)

I also wonder: If you gave a 17 year old kid, who...

Re: Should a team choose to "opt up" for competitive reasons?

feeds@kickapps.com (EastGuRu) — Tue, 02 Jun 2009 23:09:19 PST

So, Searn, here's a question for you: Let's say EGR goes undefeated regular season and loses in the semi's of D2 to, let's say, BBR. BBR goes on to win state. Alternatively, EGR stays in D3 and beats OLSM for the D3 title. Which team gets ranked higher in the final 32?? Let's assume that OLSM and BBR split their regular season games or had a close single game.

I know there are lots of "it depends" scenarios, but humor me. My purpose is not to argue for staying in D3 but to see, honestly, where opting up would get them....at least on the final Searn32 rankings, which, BTW, I think is the only serious final rankings of teams in the whole state of Michigan (pat your back for that one man). I have a feeling that chasing rankings is not what Stuursma is about....but we (fans) sure crave them:)

I also wonder: If you gave a 17 year old kid, who probably knows this is his last year to ever play organized football in his life, the option of...

Re: Should a team choose to "opt up" for competitive reasons?

feeds@kickapps.com (Searn) — Tue, 02 Jun 2009 15:29:48 PST

I'd be proud on a whole new level if EGR opted up to compete in D2, even if it meant losing in the districts more often than not (which would likely be against teams like Lowell, Muskegon and Hudsonville).

Anybody would have to respect a team that would choose to set the bar even higher than a state title against their peers, and then really had to struggle to reach that goal. They would likely "fail" most years, but the prize would be that much sweeter in the end. [Insert your favorite quote about success being the result of persisting through failures.]

I completely agree with the above quoted.... I may not be an EGR guy .... but that's how I would feel about a program I follow if there were as good as EGR and had an opportunity to opt up...

Re: Should a team choose to "opt up" for competitive reasons?

feeds@kickapps.com (SnoozeToMe) — Tue, 02 Jun 2009 12:56:14 PST

Although it has strayed from the original "darkhorse" topic, this has been an interesting discussion.

I am a proud EGR fan, yet I sit directly on the fence on the subject of opting up.

There is nothing in EastGuRu's position that I can disagree with (apart from the slightly misguided stats ). There is absolutely no shame in winning D3 championships against teams that are (usually) larger than their own. I'm certainly proud of those championships, and happy for the kids that have worked so hard to earn them.

Like many (most?) teams, the goal each season is to be the best out of roughly 75-80 similar-sized schools in their division. In 5 of the past 7 years, EGR has done just that... and in the 2 "off" years, they lost to the champion. It's an absolutely amazing accomplishment!

However, as a fan of the game, my (admittedly selfish) desire to see EGR...

Re: Should a team choose to "opt up" for competitive reasons?

feeds@kickapps.com (EastGuRu) — Tue, 02 Jun 2009 11:58:06 PST

I completely see both you and MrNcaa's point. I don't necessarily agree but your points are reasonable. Stuursma puts on a camp every summer that my kids attend. If I get a chance to chat with him I'll casually ask him if he's ever thought about it or if it was ever discussed among coaches, staff or players. Might be interesting to hear his response.

Re: Should a team choose to "opt up" for competitive reasons?

feeds@kickapps.com (Searn) — Sat, 30 May 2009 10:41:50 PST

I guess perhaps it's less of a process for OLSM to play up in basketball and football having their head coach in those sports also being the AD. ... I don't know about all those other groups ... but if the AD and coach are on the same page with it ... I think it's probably a done deal either way.

You are right it's probably to have that opinion as a fan compared to a coach or and AD... but the thing is that programs in the position to think about playing up have coaches who have obviously been very successful so far ... so I would have doubts that their jobs would be in jeopardy.

I wouldn't ask teams that are good here and there to play up ... since we don't know what they'd be putting out from year to year ... and example could be Caledonia ... one great playoff run and a few other good seasons wouldn't make me think they should play up ... but a stretch of success that EGR has had recently tells me they having something going and...

Re: Should a team choose to "opt up" for competitive reasons?

feeds@kickapps.com (EastGuRu) — Sat, 30 May 2009 03:50:04 PST

Fair enough guys. I'd be interested to hear an EGR coaches perspective on those opinions, or any coach for that matter. In other words, there must be legitimate reasons they don't opt up. It's a pretty common thing to hear from all coaches that at the start of the season you really don't know what you have, total team-wise, until a few games into the season. And, I don't think that is all bluster and posturing. I've coached enough at the lower levels to know that kids surprise you in both ways (good and bad).

I also think it is something easier to say than do. By that, I mean that no one person can make that decision. You've got assistant coaches, AD's, alums, parents of players, players themselves, and fans that all have an opinion. If you make a decision to opt up for 6 years and in two years a group of kids comes along that is not that strong and gets waxed, you'll have alot of opinion to answer to in your little corner of the world....

Re: Should a team choose to "opt up" for competitive reasons?

feeds@kickapps.com (Mr NCAA) — Sat, 30 May 2009 01:09:46 PST

Searn and I both agree on a ton in this area. However, EGR has won 5 state championships in football since 2002, Cranbrook only 4 in hockey. I have posted on here about the Illinois split the difference SEN wise scheduling for football on here before, but would apply it in other sports as well. I did say to limit it to 6 years and then revert back and win a couple more before "opting up" once again if they don't win a state championship during those 6 years. No one is suggesting teams like Chelsea "opt up" since they haven't won more than a handful of state championships in football, let alone win one.

Re: Should a team choose to "opt up" for competitive reasons?

feeds@kickapps.com (Searn) — Fri, 29 May 2009 21:08:43 PST

I don't begrudge any school for playing at their own enrollment level, especially a public school ... but that's just my own competitiveness talking ... I know if I were an EGR fan/player/alum/etc. .... I would personally hope my team would take on the challenge and opt up.

Enrollment is a decent guage overall which is why it's a good way to determine classes/divisions ... but sometimes there are sports programs are not at the same level as the school enrollment ... such as the Jackson Lumen Christi D5 team from a few years back that had 65 players on the varsity roster NOT INCLUDING sophomore or freshmen players.

They may have been a D5 school by enrollment but certainly did not have a D5 level football program.

Opting up for competitiveness is not that common in football, I agree ... OLSM a few years back may have been that case .. but it's rare ... Detroit DePorres used to do it back back in the day where they were D7/D8 by enrollment...

Should a team choose to "opt up" for competitive reasons?

feeds@kickapps.com (Searn) — Tue, 02 Jun 2009 21:15:58 PST

As some have figured out I decided to split the topics ... this came up in the D3 topic, we know EGR has been dominant in D3 for some time now ... is it time they "opt up" for the challenge to play in D2?

EGR is an elite program .... though it would have been a lot of fun to see them play up to class A (Division 2) the past 8 seasons.

Imagine the matchups with Muskegon, Hudsonville and such ..