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prepseer wrote:

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It's always been my understanding that it's the position of the ball and not the back foot that determines the spot. You can have a player standing in the end zone, but if he catches the ball in front of him and the ball never crosses the goal line, he can return the ball. Since the ball is outside the end zone, it would be a 99 yard return. Same is true on a touchdown. A runner can have his body in the end zone, but if the ball doesn't cross the plane, it's not a TD. Maybe a referee on this board can clarify the rule. Although, I think you are speaking statistically, e.g. back foot determines the beginning of the play.

It's the back foot in the NFL and in the NCAA. There is no guide for statisticians at the high school level... but all of the high school rule books are basically copies of the NCAA with changes. The NCAA Stats guide states:

Section 8, Article 2. Returns are measured from the point where the returning player first gained or lost possession of the ball (using the back foot as a starting point) to the point where the ball is declared dead or is lost by a fumble. Note: A muff is an unsuccessful attempt to catch or recover a ball that is touched in the attempt. Exception: On kickoffs that go over the goal line, the return is measured from the goal line to the point where the ball is declared dead.

For what it's worth, the note on the muff simply indicates that a muff is neither a gain or loss of possession. For statistical purposes... it is ignored.

You say...

Do you agree that a player with his back foot in the end zone can return a kick if the ball hasn't crossed the plane. What about if the player is not in the end zone, but the ball has crossed the plane. No return allowed on that. I think it always comes down to where the ball is.

Yes... a player can return a kick as long as the ball has not crossed the plane. Once the ball crosses the plane, the ball is dead. So, it's the ball for the purposes of "football rules" and the back foot for the purposes of "statistical rules".

I'm not sure when they changed the rule so that you could not return kicks out of the endzone. In Ohio, they show records of 101+ kickoff returns, but the last one was in 1965. They have a 100 yard return recorded in 2007.

I called the NFHSA this morning and spoke to their stats rule guy. He said yes.... 100 yard return is possible. In fact, if someone with long legs could reach the -1 without the ball crossing the plane, then you could give a 101 yard return.

Mr NCAA wrote:

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The only problem with using the NFL and NCAA stat guidelines is that there is no automatic touchback rule at those levels. Are we going to change the rule where runs and passes are calculated from at all levels based on the back foot rule since QBs and RB's are behind the line of scrimmage to start their passes and runs? So there are problems with using their back foot rule even at the NFL and NCAA levels. So I want consistency in the rulebook. In other words it is where the football started from that counts to me.

There is no problem. What you're mention above are play's from scrimmage. The farthest back a drive can start on (statistically) is the 1 yard line. So, on any play from scrimmage, the most you could have would be 99 yards statistically. I should clarify (contrary to what I stated earlier) that the longest Punt and KO return you can have is 100... as the rule states that endzone yardage is not counted.

Stats rules are not always black and white. In football, there is a Line of scrimmage... and a statistical line of scrimmage. In the NFL, it is possible to have a zero yard sack. In College and HS, there must be a loss of yardage. But in either case, the sack is determined from the Statistical line of scrimmage.

Example: In yesterday's Lions game,we had the following play in the second quarter:
3-10-DET 20 (5:09) (Shotgun) J.Kitna sacked at DET 20 for 0 yards (sack split by A.Kampman and K.Gbaja-Biamila).

Even though the ball was on the Detroit 20 (statistically), the actually line of scrimmage was the Detroit 19 1/3. The intention of the play was a pass, but since no one was open and he was pressured, Kitna scrambled. Even though Kitna passed the actual LOS, he didn't completely pass the Statistical LOS, so we were required (unfortunately) to rule a sack. Had (in our judgement) the play been a QB Bootleg or draw, then we could have just called it a QB run for 0 yards.

Mr NCAA wrote:

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I naturally have to disagree with you. Either you use the back foot rule in all situations or one uses where the actual football started from on the play. To use a different standards for when the football is for kick and punt returns compared to the line of scrimmage rule is in conflict. To say otherwise is just ignoring the facts. So the rulebook needs to be changed to be consistent with all situations.

There is no conflict. This is the rule and has always been the rule. There is no comparison between a Punt and kick return and a scrimmage play. They're apples and oranges.

How in the world would a back foot come into play on a scrimmage play? Under that scenario, you could have drives over 100 yards when adding yardage of each individual play. A pitchback to a running back that get stuffed at the line of scrimmage could statistically go for, let's say, a 5 yard run. Silly!

With the automatic touchback rule that is what prepseer and I are saying. The farthest that one can return the football on a kickoff or punt return is 99 yards because the football can't break the plane. This would be equivalent to starting from the line of scrimmage rule for passing and running yardage.

That's where you're wrong... they're not equivalent. For the purposes of a return, it is the back foot. As long as the ball does not cross the plane, the play continues.

Basically I wouldn't be quoting the NFL rulebook since they have a very, very poor sack rule in place. Based on your NFL rule for sacks, then a QB sneak that gains zero yards is considered a sack. This is why the NFL sack rule sucks.

No, a Quarterback sneak can NEVER EVER EVER be a sack (High School, College or NFL), that is, because a QB sneak is an intentioned run play.

To give a sack on a play, 2 things must happen. First, the intention of the play must be a pass (it's normally obvious... but when it's not, it is at the discretion of the statistician/spotter). Second, the play must end in a loss of yardage statistically (in the case of HS and NCAA) or end in no positive statistical gain (in the case of the NFL).

Mr NCAA wrote:

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No, a Quarterback sneak can NEVER EVER EVER be a sack (High School, College or NFL), that is, because a QB sneak is an intentioned run play.

Whatever, then a QB draw play can be sacked as well according to the rule and that is an intentional running play as well. So show me the NFL sack rule.

Actually, I think you misread what I wrote. A draw is a run play which can never be a sack. Only intentional PASS plays can turn into sacks (at any level).

There really isn't a rule book for stats that are made public. Officials don't credit sacks... it's a statistical thing. I have a copy of the NFL Guide for Statisticians. Here is the entry:

Sacks (Defensive)
Credit a sack to the appropriate defensive player whenever a sack is scored against the offensive team,
subject to the following principles:
1. When the player making an apparent attempt to pass is tackled or downed at or behind the
statistical line of scrimmage, credit a sack to the defensive player who tackled or downed the
potential passer.
EXCEPTION: If the potential passer fumbles before contact by the defense, no sack is credited
to any individual defensive player. However, credit the defensive team with a sack. The
number of defensive sacks should be equal to the number of offensive sacks.
2. When the player making an apparent attempt to pass steps out of bounds at or behind the
statistical line of scrimmage in order to avoid imminent contact with a defensive player, credit
that defensive player with a sack. If the potential passer steps out of bounds without the
pressure of such imminent contact, no sack is credited to any individual defensive player.

But really... this is all outside of the scope of this thread. I only brought up the sack thing to show that stat rules are not black and white... but in my opinion, they are consistent.

Mr NCAA wrote:

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The NFL and NCAA sack rules are inconsistent:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quarterback_sack

So care to explain why the NCAA subtracts from running total while the NFL doesn't. So basically the stat book is inconsistent no matter how people try to spin it.

They're not inconsistent... they're just different. No different than the foot rule. In the NFL, you need 2 feet in-bounds for a completion... in the NCAA, only 1 (unless they've changed that recently). The quote that I gave you came out of the NFL Guide for Statisticians. The NCAA has their own Guide for statisticians .

By the way, Wikipedia is incorrect about the sack rule for NFL. I've added a note of clarification to the entry.

The following is a judgement call in NFL QB draws. Who is to say that the QB didn't find anyone open downfield and decided to run with the football real quick?

When the player making an apparent attempt to pass

Sacks are judgement calls made by statisticians. The intention of every scrimmage play is either a run or pass (or punt I guess). 99% of the time it's easy to discern what the play's intention was. If QB is fakes a handoff, then tucks the ball and runs and is sacked behind the line-of-Scrimmage, that is not a sack. If a QB goes back to pass... see's no one open, then takes off and is stopped behind the LOS--at or behind for NFL--then that's a sack, as the play originated as a pass play. That part of the rule is consistant at all 3 levels and again is sometimes left up to judgement.