Best in Michigan HS Football Per ESPN ...

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06/01/09 3:40 PM

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Was watching College Football Live on ESPN today and it was devoted to football in Michigan ...

It gave a little mention to high school football with some of their "facts"

Top Program: Muskegon
Top Coach: Al Fracassa
Top Players (all-time): Jerome Bettis, Ron Kramer, Andre Rison
Best Rivalry: Brother Rice vs. Detroit Catholic Central

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klaaniac

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06/01/09 7:06 PM

Could be interesting to see what other people think when asked those questions

Top Program?
Top Coach?
Top Players All-Time?
Top Rivelry?

Look Forward to hearing what people have to say.....

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Spartan2008StateChamps

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06/01/09 7:55 PM

I would've thought that they would've given it to Muskegon v. Rockford.

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BIGREDS89

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06/01/09 8:29 PM

Spartan2008StateChamps wrote:
I would've thought that they would've given it to Muskegon v. Rockford.

While that is a heated rivalry along with Muskegon and Lowell those matchups do not have the longevity of the BBR DCC rivalry. Muskegon had a much bigger rivalry that went much much longer with Traverse City before they split into 2 schools. I think you could make the argument for Muskegon for top program although you could make arguments for other programs as well. Top coach I don't think there is a doubt it would have to be Fracassa. Top players you could also make a huge list and go on and on with it I think Bettis would be on the list but not sure about Rison.

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06/01/09 10:18 PM

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Ya,

While ESPN picked a big game in Michigan for their "Rivalry" special a few years ago it was an odd pick as one of "America's Top HS Rivalries" or whatever it was called .... since at the time Muskegon and Rockford had only gone head to head a handful of times...

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Mr NCAA

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06/01/09 10:52 PM

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It was on Versus and it was called "Greatest High School Football Rivalries" since I still have that on my tivo wishlist.

I disagree with several of the picks. EGR has won 5 out of the last 7 state championships in D3 if ESPN is going to overlook Rockford with 3 state championships since they picked Muskegon. So EGR is currently my top "program" with the coach there as well. One could argue that Munger is the top coach if Coach Al is on there since BBR hasn't won as many state titles as recently as the Rams. Currently Negaunee vs. ishpeming is my top rivalry game in the state based on 3 criteria: year started, competitiveness, and number of games played. BBR vs. DCC is lacking in two of the 3 criteria big time.

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BIGREDS89

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06/02/09 12:00 AM

Well again alot of these things I think are arguable for sure. I know how and why ESPN picked Muskegon as Muskegon has the most wins in state history its easy to look at that and then past recent results and just hang it there. You could make a case for EGR, or Rockford as well. Heck you could head back just a few years and make a case for FHH as well I think.

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Searn

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06/02/09 7:52 AM

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I can see why it would be easy to pick Muskegon and Fracassa..... each has the most all-time wins in their category.

So as far as #s go ..... those would be the picks. .... the rivalry pick must have been had some consideration beyond numbers.

While there are arguments for each category ..... I wouldn't argue that hard to chance any of the 3 picks ....

The top players are might take some additional research.

Thanks Mr. NCAA .... I forgot that was on Versus not ESPN.

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EastGuRu

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06/02/09 11:53 AM

MrNcAA, I agree with you on the Ishpeming v Negaunee rivalry game. I happened to be able to attend one of these games as I have a friend who teaches up at the college and was visiting at the time of the game. Those two schools, while not garnering nearly the attention of the lower state or big-time programs, put on quite a show and the atmosphere was pure high school football at it's best. I was impressed and, more importantly, entertained big time.

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Mr NCAA

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06/02/09 5:02 PM

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If ESPN did the other 2 categories since the beginning of time, then this is the longest rivalry in the state:

1 1893 Battle Creek Central Kalamazoo Central 105 59 42 4 0.581

So why didn't they use the same criteria all the time for the 3 categories that they could? One could argue that the best coach was Tom Saylor as well since Hudson has the state all time best winning streak.

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Mr NCAA

2009 rivalry games

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06/02/09 5:49 PM

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Here is the 2009 rivalry game information. The Muskegon vs. Grand Rapids Central is more like a series though if one uses John Hulsebus's www.michigan-football.com as a reference. I counted something like 13 games played since 1950 only. So it really doesn't belong on the list. I will attempt perhaps to find out the all time series record at a future date to see how frequently they played between 1895 and 1949. Plus this is the 4th year that the Niles vs. Dowagiac rivalry doesn't take place so it's losing some of its luster. Basically I put in the 2009 dates in today and eliminated the won loss result from last year as well as the 2008 dates. If someone has all the info for the rivalry at the bottom I will add that to my spreadsheet next year as well. There is no complete won loss record for the Saginaw Arthur Hill vs. Saginaw so I put in John's results for the time being.

RIVALRY GAMES = FILE FORMED JUNE 2, 2009
YEAR STARTED
#	YEAR	TEAM 1	TEAM 2	# OF GAMES	W	L	T	PCT.	2009 DATE	W	L
1	1893	Battle Creek Central	Kalamazoo Central	105	59	42	4	0.581	10/9/2009
2	1894	Negaunee	Marquette	133	68	54	11	0.553	10/16/2009
3	1894	Marinette	Menominee	102	50	45	7	0.525	10/16/2009
4	1895	Negaunee	Ishpeming	135	64	59	12	0.519	10/9/2009
5	1895	Saginaw Arthur Hill*	Saginaw	112	41	17	1	0.703	10/23/2009
6	1895	Muskegon	Grand Rapids Central	0					NO
7	1896	Plainwell	Otsego	107	60	41	6	0.589	10/23/2009
8	1896	Adrian	Monroe	106	51	49	6	0.509	8/28/2009
9	1896	Niles	Dowagiac	102	49	48	5	0.505	NO
10	1897	Escanaba	Menominee	112	57	52	3	0.522	10/2/2009
11	1901	Grand Haven	Holland	110	64	38	8	0.618	NO
12	1903	Clinton	Manchester	106	55	44	7	0.552	8/28/2009
13	1911	Grand Rapids Catholic Central	Grand Rapids Central	96	52	39	5	0.568	NO
14	1921	Montague	Whitehall	102	53	47	2	0.529	9/25/2009
COMPETITIVENESS
#	YEAR	TEAM 1	TEAM 2	# OF GAMES	W	L	T	PCT.	2009 DATE	W	L
1	1896	Niles	Dowagiac	102	49	48	5	0.505	NO
2	1896	Adrian	Monroe	106	51	49	6	0.509	8/28/2009
3	1895	Negaunee	Ishpeming	135	64	59	12	0.519	10/9/2009
4	1897	Escanaba	Menominee	112	57	52	3	0.522	10/2/2009
5	1894	Marinette	Menominee	102	50	45	7	0.525	10/16/2009
6	1921	Montague	Whitehall	102	53	47	2	0.529	9/25/2009
7	1903	Clinton	Manchester	106	55	44	7	0.552	8/28/2009
8	1894	Negaunee	Marquette	133	68	54	11	0.553	10/16/2009
9	1911	Grand Rapids Catholic Central	Grand Rapids Central	96	52	39	5	0.568	NO
10	1893	Battle Creek Central	Kalamazoo Central	105	59	42	4	0.581	10/9/2009
11	1896	Plainwell	Otsego	107	60	41	6	0.589	10/23/2009
12	1901	Grand Haven	Holland	110	64	38	8	0.618	NO
13	1895	Saginaw Arthur Hill*	Saginaw	112	41	17	1	0.703	10/23/2009
14	1895	Muskegon	Grand Rapids Central	0					NO
NUMBER OF GAMES PLAYED
#	YEAR	TEAM 1	TEAM 2	# OF GAMES	W	L	T	PCT.	2009 DATE	W	L
1	1895	Negaunee	Ishpeming	135	64	59	12	0.519	10/9/2009
2	1894	Negaunee	Marquette	133	68	54	11	0.553	10/16/2009
3	1897	Escanaba	Menominee	112	57	52	3	0.522	10/2/2009
4	1895	Saginaw Arthur Hill*	Saginaw	112	41	17	1	0.703	10/23/2009
5	1901	Grand Haven	Holland	110	64	38	8	0.618	NO
6	1896	Plainwell	Otsego	107	60	41	6	0.589	10/23/2009
7	1903	Clinton	Manchester	106	55	44	7	0.552	8/28/2009
8	1896	Adrian	Monroe	106	51	49	6	0.509	8/28/2009
9	1893	Battle Creek Central	Kalamazoo Central	105	59	42	4	0.581	10/9/2009
10	1921	Montague	Whitehall	102	53	47	2	0.529	9/25/2009
11	1896	Niles	Dowagiac	102	49	48	5	0.505	NO
12	1894	Marinette	Menominee	102	50	45	7	0.525	10/16/2009
13	1911	Grand Rapids Catholic Central	Grand Rapids Central	96	52	39	5	0.568	NO
14	1895	Muskegon	Grand Rapids Central	0					NO
BEST RIVALRY GAME
#	YEAR	TEAM 1	TEAM 2		Y	C	G	TOT.	2009 DATE	W	L
1	1895	Negaunee	Ishpeming		5	3	1	9.0	10/9/2009
2	1894	Negaunee	Marquette		2.5	8	2	12.5	10/16/2009
3	1896	Adrian	Monroe		8	2	7.5	17.5	8/28/2009
4	1897	Escanaba	Menominee		10	4	3.5	17.5	10/2/2009
5	1894	Marinette	Menominee		2.5	5	11	18.5	10/16/2009
6	1893	Battle Creek Central	Kalamazoo Central		1	10	9	20.0	10/9/2009
7	1896	Niles	Dowagiac		8	1	11	20.0	NO
8	1895	Saginaw Arthur Hill*	Saginaw		5	13	3.5	21.5	10/23/2009
9	1896	Plainwell	Otsego		8	11	6	25.0	10/23/2009
10	1903	Clinton	Manchester		12	7	7.5	26.5	8/28/2009
11	1901	Grand Haven	Holland		11	12	5	28.0	NO
12	1921	Montague	Whitehall		14	6	11	31.0	9/25/2009
13	1895	Muskegon	Grand Rapids Central		5	14	14	33.0	NO
14	1911	Grand Rapids Catholic Central	Grand Rapids Central		13	9	13	35.0	NO
* won loss results since 1950
pre 1911?		Grand Rapids Central	Grand Rapids Union						8/28/2009

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Searn

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06/02/09 5:50 PM

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As in most cases I bet ESPN had some local source for such info ... no idea who that would be...

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Mr NCAA

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06/02/09 6:19 PM

MHSAA Football Stats

Whatever. There were other deserving players as well. Joe D. and Reggie McKenzie were part of the Electric Company for the Juice. Joe. D. was a major oversight compared to Kramer and Rison since Joe is in the pro football hall of fame.

I thought that people might like the rivalry game info since we were on the topic so that they can try to catch one of the old rivalry games this fall.

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ftballfan

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06/02/09 9:01 PM

No Niles-Dowagiac for the 4th straight year, in addition to lack of playoff success recently (especially vs. O-K Conference schools), shows that Southwestern Michigan leagues are in need of major changes.

1. Kick JLC out of the SMAC. Football joins their other sports in the CAAC. SMAC goes to same divisions as basketball (three divisions of five schools each) with two non-league games, three crossovers, and four division games. Odd team out in the crossover picks up an extra non-league game.

2. Dowagiac and Paw Paw leave Wolverine for Lakeland (shorter travel and schools closer to their size).

3. Mendon, WP, Centreville, and Bronson join the KVA and league divides into two divisions (North and South) with two non-league games, one crossover, and six division games.

4. SCAA remains status quo.

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Mr NCAA

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06/02/09 9:15 PM

MHSAA Football Stats

I used John's website for the dates. I now see that John has the date wrong according to the MHSAA on the Maple vs. Trojan game since it is on a Saturday. So make the date the 29th for that game.

On the MHSAA website the M & M game and the Saginaw rivalry game have different dates on them as well.

RIVALRY GAMES = FILE FORMED JUNE 2, 2009
YEAR STARTED
#	YEAR	TEAM 1	TEAM 2	# OF GAMES	W	L	T	PCT.	2009 DATE	W	L
1	1893	Battle Creek Central	Kalamazoo Central	105	59	42	4	0.581	10/9/2009
2	1894	Negaunee	Marquette	133	68	54	11	0.553	10/16/2009
3	1894	Marinette	Menominee	102	50	45	7	0.525	10/17/2009
4	1895	Negaunee	Ishpeming	135	64	59	12	0.519	10/9/2009
5	1895	Saginaw Arthur Hill*	Saginaw	112	41	17	1	0.703	10/24/2009
6	1895	Muskegon	Grand Rapids Central	0					NO
7	1896	Plainwell	Otsego	107	60	41	6	0.589	10/23/2009
8	1896	Adrian	Monroe	106	51	49	6	0.509	8/29/2009
9	1896	Niles	Dowagiac	102	49	48	5	0.505	NO
10	1897	Escanaba	Menominee	112	57	52	3	0.522	10/2/2009
11	1901	Grand Haven	Holland	110	64	38	8	0.618	NO
12	1903	Clinton	Manchester	106	55	44	7	0.552	8/28/2009
13	1911	Grand Rapids Catholic Central	Grand Rapids Central	96	52	39	5	0.568	NO
14	1921	Montague	Whitehall	102	53	47	2	0.529	9/25/2009
COMPETITIVENESS
#	YEAR	TEAM 1	TEAM 2	# OF GAMES	W	L	T	PCT.	2009 DATE	W	L
1	1896	Niles	Dowagiac	102	49	48	5	0.505	NO
2	1896	Adrian	Monroe	106	51	49	6	0.509	8/29/2009
3	1895	Negaunee	Ishpeming	135	64	59	12	0.519	10/9/2009
4	1897	Escanaba	Menominee	112	57	52	3	0.522	10/2/2009
5	1894	Marinette	Menominee	102	50	45	7	0.525	10/17/2009
6	1921	Montague	Whitehall	102	53	47	2	0.529	9/25/2009
7	1903	Clinton	Manchester	106	55	44	7	0.552	8/28/2009
8	1894	Negaunee	Marquette	133	68	54	11	0.553	10/16/2009
9	1911	Grand Rapids Catholic Central	Grand Rapids Central	96	52	39	5	0.568	NO
10	1893	Battle Creek Central	Kalamazoo Central	105	59	42	4	0.581	10/9/2009
11	1896	Plainwell	Otsego	107	60	41	6	0.589	10/23/2009
12	1901	Grand Haven	Holland	110	64	38	8	0.618	NO
13	1895	Saginaw Arthur Hill*	Saginaw	112	41	17	1	0.703	10/24/2009
14	1895	Muskegon	Grand Rapids Central	0					NO
NUMBER OF GAMES PLAYED
#	YEAR	TEAM 1	TEAM 2	# OF GAMES	W	L	T	PCT.	2009 DATE	W	L
1	1895	Negaunee	Ishpeming	135	64	59	12	0.519	10/9/2009
2	1894	Negaunee	Marquette	133	68	54	11	0.553	10/16/2009
3	1897	Escanaba	Menominee	112	57	52	3	0.522	10/2/2009
4	1895	Saginaw Arthur Hill*	Saginaw	112	41	17	1	0.703	10/24/2009
5	1901	Grand Haven	Holland	110	64	38	8	0.618	NO
6	1896	Plainwell	Otsego	107	60	41	6	0.589	10/23/2009
7	1903	Clinton	Manchester	106	55	44	7	0.552	8/29/2009
8	1896	Adrian	Monroe	106	51	49	6	0.509	8/28/2009
9	1893	Battle Creek Central	Kalamazoo Central	105	59	42	4	0.581	10/9/2009
10	1921	Montague	Whitehall	102	53	47	2	0.529	9/25/2009
11	1896	Niles	Dowagiac	102	49	48	5	0.505	NO
12	1894	Marinette	Menominee	102	50	45	7	0.525	10/17/2009
13	1911	Grand Rapids Catholic Central	Grand Rapids Central	96	52	39	5	0.568	NO
14	1895	Muskegon	Grand Rapids Central	0					NO
BEST RIVALRY GAME
#	YEAR	TEAM 1	TEAM 2		Y	C	G	TOT.	2009 DATE	W	L
1	1895	Negaunee	Ishpeming		5	3	1	9.0	10/9/2009
2	1894	Negaunee	Marquette		2.5	8	2	12.5	10/16/2009
3	1896	Adrian	Monroe		8	2	7.5	17.5	8/29/2009
4	1897	Escanaba	Menominee		10	4	3.5	17.5	10/2/2009
5	1894	Marinette	Menominee		2.5	5	11	18.5	10/17/2009
6	1893	Battle Creek Central	Kalamazoo Central		1	10	9	20.0	10/9/2009
7	1896	Niles	Dowagiac		8	1	11	20.0	NO
8	1895	Saginaw Arthur Hill*	Saginaw		5	13	3.5	21.5	10/24/2009
9	1896	Plainwell	Otsego		8	11	6	25.0	10/23/2009
10	1903	Clinton	Manchester		12	7	7.5	26.5	8/28/2009
11	1901	Grand Haven	Holland		11	12	5	28.0	NO
12	1921	Montague	Whitehall		14	6	11	31.0	9/25/2009
13	1895	Muskegon	Grand Rapids Central		5	14	14	33.0	NO
14	1911	Grand Rapids Catholic Central	Grand Rapids Central		13	9	13	35.0	NO
* won loss results since 1950
pre 1911?		Grand Rapids Central	Grand Rapids Union						8/28/2009

Last Edited By: Mr NCAA 06/02/09 9:34 PM. Edited 1 time.

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TNTDyno

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06/03/09 2:00 PM

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ftballfan wrote:
No Niles-Dowagiac for the 4th straight year, in addition to lack of playoff success recently (especially vs. O-K Conference schools), shows that Southwestern Michigan leagues are in need of major changes.

1. Kick JLC out of the SMAC. Football joins their other sports in the CAAC. SMAC goes to same divisions as basketball (three divisions of five schools each) with two non-league games, three crossovers, and four division games. Odd team out in the crossover picks up an extra non-league game.

2. Dowagiac and Paw Paw leave Wolverine for Lakeland (shorter travel and schools closer to their size).

3. Mendon, WP, Centreville, and Bronson join the KVA and league divides into two divisions (North and South) with two non-league games, one crossover, and six division games.

4. SCAA remains status quo.

I'm confused. How does this fix lack of success vs. OK conference schools?

"The common man revels in HAVING WON. The champion finds his satisfaction in WINNING." - F.H. Yost

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Boeing747

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06/03/09 10:24 PM

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I think ESPN's local contact is Tom Markowski - I do recall how a few months ago on the ESPN Rise site he was the one who wrote about basketball in the state of Michigan when ESPN was doing a comparison on high school basketball around the nation.

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ftballfan

#17

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06/04/09 1:24 PM

For TNTDyno: The added non-conference dates would give schools the opportunity to schedule tougher opponents, preparing them for the playoffs.

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TNTDyno

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06/09/09 9:14 AM

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ftballfan: Got it. I thought that was where you were headed. Of course, the schools would then actually have to schedule tougher opponents and not just cupcakes to get to six wins.

"The common man revels in HAVING WON. The champion finds his satisfaction in WINNING." - F.H. Yost

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bigrich77

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06/18/09 5:43 PM

LIVONIA STEVENSON AND LIVONIA FRANKLIN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! gotta love those games hahahahahahahaha

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Mr NCAA

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06/18/09 6:02 PM

MHSAA Football Stats

Even BBR opened up before Livonia Stevenson did. HAHAHAHA

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