Should a team choose to "opt up" for competitive reasons?

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Searn	Should a team choose to "opt up" for competitive reasons?		Lead	[-]
All-Searn Hall of Fame Posts: 7293 06/02/09 9:15 PM Board Owner http://michiganhsfootball.com	Tags : None As some have figured out I decided to split the topics ... this came up in the D3 topic, we know EGR has been dominant in D3 for some time now ... is it time they "opt up" for the challenge to play in D2? EGR is an elite program .... though it would have been a lot of fun to see them play up to class A (Division 2) the past 8 seasons. Imagine the matchups with Muskegon, Hudsonville and such ..
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Mr NCAA	Why should a team "opt up"?	#1	[url]	[-]
All-Searn Hall of Fame Posts: 6651 05/28/09 4:37 PM MHSAA Football Stats	I agree with Searn that EGR should opt up for 6 years. If no title in D2, then win some more (a couple) in D3, and then move up once again.
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EastGuRu	Why should a team	#2	[url]	[-]
Senior Posts: 233 05/28/09 8:09 PM	I'm just curious. For those of you talking about EGR moving up to D2, is this just from a spectator standpoint or do you somehow think it is "unfair" that they are in D3? Demanding a public school of 950 kids move up to D2 for 6-8 years seems a bit much to me. Yes, EGR has had quite a run and I agree that some matchups with D2 powers (other than Lowell) would have been great spectator games. But, I always find this bit of "armchair advice" a bit of 20/20 hindsight. I know there have been some schools opt up due to their ability to privately recruit players and I believe that they only did that in response to fellow coaching or league pressure. There may have also been some schools opt up in order to join a particular league. But I'm not aware of any school in Michigan that has committed to opting up for multiple years with the sole reasoning being "we are just that good!" One, it would come off as a little arrogant. Two, what coach would put that kind of pressure on himself (much less the kids). If I'm not mistaken, last year, every school they played, in both reg season and playoffs were larger than East by 50-250 students. Like I said, just curious.
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Mr NCAA	Re: Why should a team	#3	[url]	[-]
All-Searn Hall of Fame Posts: 6654 05/28/09 8:36 PM MHSAA Football Stats	My personal position is that any school that wins as many championships as EGR has should take advatage of the "opt up" for 6 years and see how they fare at the next level. This isn't 20/20 hindsight either. It's my policy for all schools, not just EGR. So I just wasn't picking on them either. The Class A teams can't opt up either, but so that's a rule that needs to be changed. So D1 and D2 teams can't opt up under the current playoff format. I didn't mention anything about recruiting players either so keep it on what I post such as the "opting up" aspect based on winning past state championships. BTW two schools in last falls playoffs were smaller than EGR. Another had 2 more students. So go figure that one out on your stats. Last Edited By: Mr NCAA 05/28/09 8:39 PM. Edited 1 time.
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EastGuRu	Re: Why should a team	#4	[url]	[-]
Senior Posts: 234 05/28/09 9:27 PM	Well, let's see MrNCAA. I don't believe I accused you of mentioning recruiting. In fact, I re-read my post just to make sure. I think I made the statement of recruiting as an example in my discussion so I'm not sure where that defensiveness is coming from. Secondly, I guess I owe all and especially you, it seems, an apology for stating that "If I'm not mistaken......" Well, apparently I was mistaken. You see, I didn't actually go look all of the stats up. I was pretty sure almost all of the Teams EGR played were larger and just couldn't think of any at the time. So, if I plug your info into "my stats" I still get something like EGR, most of the time, plays larger schools. My bad. My apologies also for missing all the posts you must have made regarding Mendon or CFFP. Anyway, I'm still curious as to your reasoning for the position that a team like EGR should move up. I know it's your opinion and your entitled, but in HSF, last year's success does not guarantee next year's....or, at least it doesn't guarantee the next 6 years. Lastly, I'm afraid I'm also a little confused on how the rule should be changed so that a team like Rockford can "opt up". If Rockford wins another championship or two, should we conclude that they should play only DivII colleges for six years?
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EastGuRu	Re: Why should a team	#5	[url]	[-]
Senior Posts: 235 05/28/09 10:01 PM	BTW. For the record I do tend to agree with Searn's "sentiment" that it would have been nice to see some of those games (EGR vs. D1 or D2 playoff teams). But that is really no different than wishing for any other matchup of quality teams that for reasons of format, never occur. And I also imagine that if I were an EGR player (which I am not) I would consider any such talk a compliment. There have been a couple of EGR teams that I think were on a par with the best in state regardless of class. Other years they were the best D3 team, but not the best regardless of class. So, I think it's safe to say that they wouldn't have nearly the championships that they have now if they had opted up all those years. Now, here's where I get curious again........would you folks still consider EGR an "elite" school if they had opted up the past 7 years and came away with only 2 SC instead of 5?? Honest now!
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Searn	Why should a team	#6	[url]	[-]
All-Searn Hall of Fame Posts: 7278 05/29/09 9:08 PM Board Owner http://michiganhsfootball.com	I don't begrudge any school for playing at their own enrollment level, especially a public school ... but that's just my own competitiveness talking ... I know if I were an EGR fan/player/alum/etc. .... I would personally hope my team would take on the challenge and opt up. Enrollment is a decent guage overall which is why it's a good way to determine classes/divisions ... but sometimes there are sports programs are not at the same level as the school enrollment ... such as the Jackson Lumen Christi D5 team from a few years back that had 65 players on the varsity roster NOT INCLUDING sophomore or freshmen players. They may have been a D5 school by enrollment but certainly did not have a D5 level football program. Opting up for competitiveness is not that common in football, I agree ... OLSM a few years back may have been that case .. but it's rare ... Detroit DePorres used to do it back back in the day where they were D7/D8 by enrollment but played in D4. ... It's pretty common though in sports like MHSAA hockey .... there's a ton of hockey programs that opt up year to year because they want the challenge ... and while I would not begrudge them for winning in their own class ... I respect them for taking on the challenge. By the way Cranbrook may be the biggest joke in MHSAA sports when it comes to a team that SHOULD be opting up. They are a private school where hockey is the main sports ... they even have their own ice arena ... they play a top tear D1 type schedule all year and then compete in the lowest class in MHSAA hockey. Of any school in sports (that i know of ) now that DePorres is closed I'm not sure anyone SHOULD play up as much as Cranbrook hockey. Again... in the case of EGR it's my own thing ... I just know if I were in charge at EGR ..... we (they) would have been playing D2 football for a couple years now. ....
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Mr NCAA	Re: Why should a team	#7	[url]	[-]
All-Searn Hall of Fame Posts: 6657 05/30/09 1:09 AM MHSAA Football Stats	Searn and I both agree on a ton in this area. However, EGR has won 5 state championships in football since 2002, Cranbrook only 4 in hockey. I have posted on here about the Illinois split the difference SEN wise scheduling for football on here before, but would apply it in other sports as well. I did say to limit it to 6 years and then revert back and win a couple more before "opting up" once again if they don't win a state championship during those 6 years. No one is suggesting teams like Chelsea "opt up" since they haven't won more than a handful of state championships in football, let alone win one.
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EastGuRu	Re: Why should a team	#8	[url]	[-]
Senior Posts: 237 05/30/09 3:50 AM	Fair enough guys. I'd be interested to hear an EGR coaches perspective on those opinions, or any coach for that matter. In other words, there must be legitimate reasons they don't opt up. It's a pretty common thing to hear from all coaches that at the start of the season you really don't know what you have, total team-wise, until a few games into the season. And, I don't think that is all bluster and posturing. I've coached enough at the lower levels to know that kids surprise you in both ways (good and bad). I also think it is something easier to say than do. By that, I mean that no one person can make that decision. You've got assistant coaches, AD's, alums, parents of players, players themselves, and fans that all have an opinion. If you make a decision to opt up for 6 years and in two years a group of kids comes along that is not that strong and gets waxed, you'll have alot of opinion to answer to in your little corner of the world. Look, I'm as competitive as the next guy. And I would have liked to have seen some of those games you're describing some years. But, I think it is alot easier to come on a forum like this and make a pronouncement of what "you'd do" than it would be if you were holding the clipboard and your job and reputation were on the line. One way I could support it was if you could somehow make the decision at the end of the regular season and before the playoffs started. By then, you know what you have. If your team is incredibly strong, you could then sell the idea to the kids and everyone else. If they are not that strong, you still get a chance to compete within your class and achieve something.
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Searn	Re: Why should a team	#9	[url]	[-]
All-Searn Hall of Fame Posts: 7280 05/30/09 10:41 AM Board Owner http://michiganhsfootball.com	I guess perhaps it's less of a process for OLSM to play up in basketball and football having their head coach in those sports also being the AD. ... I don't know about all those other groups ... but if the AD and coach are on the same page with it ... I think it's probably a done deal either way. You are right it's probably to have that opinion as a fan compared to a coach or and AD... but the thing is that programs in the position to think about playing up have coaches who have obviously been very successful so far ... so I would have doubts that their jobs would be in jeopardy. I wouldn't ask teams that are good here and there to play up ... since we don't know what they'd be putting out from year to year ... and example could be Caledonia ... one great playoff run and a few other good seasons wouldn't make me think they should play up ... but a stretch of success that EGR has had recently tells me they having something going and have built a program ... as opposed to some schools that have strong seasons just based on having a good class or two. Again ... it's their call. I'd probably be more on them about it if they were a private school. ....
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EastGuRu	Re: Why should a team	#10	[url]	[-]
Senior Posts: 239 06/02/09 11:58 AM	I completely see both you and MrNcaa's point. I don't necessarily agree but your points are reasonable. Stuursma puts on a camp every summer that my kids attend. If I get a chance to chat with him I'll casually ask him if he's ever thought about it or if it was ever discussed among coaches, staff or players. Might be interesting to hear his response.
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SnoozeToMe	Re: Why should a team	#11	[url]	[-]
Senior Posts: 124 06/02/09 12:56 PM Playoff Maps and Brackets	Although it has strayed from the original "darkhorse" topic, this has been an interesting discussion. I am a proud EGR fan, yet I sit directly on the fence on the subject of opting up. There is nothing in EastGuRu's position that I can disagree with (apart from the slightly misguided stats ). There is absolutely no shame in winning D3 championships against teams that are (usually) larger than their own. I'm certainly proud of those championships, and happy for the kids that have worked so hard to earn them. Like many (most?) teams, the goal each season is to be the best out of roughly 75-80 similar-sized schools in their division. In 5 of the past 7 years, EGR has done just that... and in the 2 "off" years, they lost to the champion. It's an absolutely amazing accomplishment! However, as a fan of the game, my (admittedly selfish) desire to see EGR compete in D2 playoffs is so incredibly strong. I mean no disrespect to any D3 schools, but it has basically been a cake-walk through the playoffs for EGR over the past few years. The 5-OT final against OLSM is the one exception that I can think of. I'd be proud on a whole new level if EGR opted up to compete in D2, even if it meant losing in the districts more often than not (which would likely be against teams like Lowell, Muskegon and Hudsonville). Anybody would have to respect a team that would choose to set the bar even higher than a state title against their peers, and then really had to struggle to reach that goal. They would likely "fail" most years, but the prize would be that much sweeter in the end. [Insert your favorite quote about success being the result of persisting through failures.] For what it's worth, I think a 2- or 3-year commitment to opt up makes better sense than 6 years. Heck, if "opting up for x number of years" doesn't have to be a plural number of years, I'd consider allowing a team to opt up for a single season. I'm in no position to say what EGR should or shouldn't do. I trust that the idea of opting up has been discussed by those that make such decisions, and I have no reason to doubt their decision. Whether it's D3 or D2, and whether they're the favorite or the underdog, I'll be rooting for the Pioneers.
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Searn	Re: Why should a team	#12	[url]	[-]
All-Searn Hall of Fame Posts: 7289 06/02/09 3:29 PM Board Owner http://michiganhsfootball.com	I'd be proud on a whole new level if EGR opted up to compete in D2, even if it meant losing in the districts more often than not (which would likely be against teams like Lowell, Muskegon and Hudsonville). Anybody would have to respect a team that would choose to set the bar even higher than a state title against their peers, and then really had to struggle to reach that goal. They would likely "fail" most years, but the prize would be that much sweeter in the end. [Insert your favorite quote about success being the result of persisting through failures.] I completely agree with the above quoted.... I may not be an EGR guy .... but that's how I would feel about a program I follow if there were as good as EGR and had an opportunity to opt up...
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EastGuRu		#13	[url]	[-]
Senior Posts: 240 06/02/09 11:09 PM	So, Searn, here's a question for you: Let's say EGR goes undefeated regular season and loses in the semi's of D2 to, let's say, BBR. BBR goes on to win state. Alternatively, EGR stays in D3 and beats OLSM for the D3 title. Which team gets ranked higher in the final 32?? Let's assume that OLSM and BBR split their regular season games or had a close single game. I know there are lots of "it depends" scenarios, but humor me. My purpose is not to argue for staying in D3 but to see, honestly, where opting up would get them....at least on the final Searn32 rankings, which, BTW, I think is the only serious final rankings of teams in the whole state of Michigan (pat your back for that one man). I have a feeling that chasing rankings is not what Stuursma is about....but we (fans) sure crave them:) I also wonder: If you gave a 17 year old kid, who probably knows this is his last year to ever play organized football in his life, the option of staying in your assigned division and winning a championship vs. opting up and getting eliminated in the X round..............which would he choose? I don't know. Maybe a player who lurks here can answer that, because I'm sure it's alot easier for us old fogies to make a claim that we might not have made at 17.
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Searn		#14	[url]	[-]
All-Searn Hall of Fame Posts: 7294 06/03/09 8:34 AM Board Owner http://michiganhsfootball.com	EastGuRu wrote: So, Searn, here's a question for you: Let's say EGR goes undefeated regular season and loses in the semi's of D2 to, let's say, BBR. BBR goes on to win state. Alternatively, EGR stays in D3 and beats OLSM for the D3 title. Which team gets ranked higher in the final 32?? Let's assume that OLSM and BBR split their regular season games or had a close single game. I know there are lots of "it depends" scenarios, but humor me. My purpose is not to argue for staying in D3 but to see, honestly, where opting up would get them....at least on the final Searn32 rankings, which, BTW, I think is the only serious final rankings of teams in the whole state of Michigan (pat your back for that one man). I have a feeling that chasing rankings is not what Stuursma is about....but we (fans) sure crave them:) I also wonder: If you gave a 17 year old kid, who probably knows this is his last year to ever play organized football in his life, the option of staying in your assigned division and winning a championship vs. opting up and getting eliminated in the X round..............which would he choose? I don't know. Maybe a player who lurks here can answer that, because I'm sure it's alot easier for us old fogies to make a claim that we might not have made at 17. I'm sure you know it would depend year to year and who they beat on the way to the D2 semi's ... but just looking at 2008 (I'm heading out the door so I'll look at more later ) ... it just so happens that there are exactly 4 D2 teams ahead of EGR in the final 2008 rankings. Obviously EGR had some teams in say 2002 or 2003 (or both) that I think was better than anyone in D2.
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EastGuRu		#15	[url]	[-]
Senior Posts: 241 06/03/09 2:08 PM	I just thought of something. We've been talking mostly about EGR but I'm thinking what would have happened to Lowell the past couple of years had they opted up to D1 (I know that's not currently possible). I'm betting they might have fared better as they may have matched up better with Rockford than Muskegon. Just a thought.
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KleShreen		#16	[url]	[-]
All-State Posts: 749 06/03/09 4:26 PM	So should a team struggling in sports be able to opt down? Grand Valley State - NATIONAL CHAMPS AGAIN! ('02 '03 '05 '06 baby!)
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Searn		#17	[url]	[-]
All-Searn Hall of Fame Posts: 7295 06/03/09 5:06 PM Board Owner http://michiganhsfootball.com	EastGuRu wrote: I just thought of something. We've been talking mostly about EGR but I'm thinking what would have happened to Lowell the past couple of years had they opted up to D1 (I know that's not currently possible). I'm betting they might have fared better as they may have matched up better with Rockford than Muskegon. Just a thought. It's hard to say .... Rockford has been no slouch ... but you could be right about Lowell matching up better with Rockford compared to Muskegon. In terms of your other question ... I think there's about a 55-60% chance EGR would end up rated higher at the end of the year making the D2 finals compared to winning D3. ... But there's a lot of things that could change that ... maybe EGR beats Lowell and goes 14-0 ... and Lowell goes 13-1 and wins D2 .... Unless there is some great team in D1 ... that would give EGR a shot at #1 regardless of what division they play in.
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Searn		#18	[url]	[-]
All-Searn Hall of Fame Posts: 7296 06/03/09 5:07 PM Board Owner http://michiganhsfootball.com	KleShreen wrote: So should a team struggling in sports be able to opt down? Hmmm ... probably not ... but chances are it wouldn't matter anyway ... .since in football a team really struggling probably wouldn't make the playoffs in most cases.
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EastGuRu		#19	[url]	[-]
Senior Posts: 242 06/03/09 8:45 PM	No way on the "opt down" option. That would just be lame, not to mention unfair to smaller schools. After thinking about this for a while I would be fine with opting up solely for competitive reasons if you could make the decision some time late in the season, say right after you qualify for the playoffs but before your next game. IMO there are just too many unknowns before a season starts, much less before a season three years from now starts. This would also give a coach the chance to propose it to the kids on the team and let them decide. After all, it's their season, more so than the coaches or the fans.
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SnoozeToMe		#20	[url]	[-]
Senior Posts: 125 06/03/09 11:33 PM Playoff Maps and Brackets	EastGuRu wrote: I also wonder: If you gave a 17 year old kid, who probably knows this is his last year to ever play organized football in his life, the option of staying in your assigned division and winning a championship vs. opting up and getting eliminated in the X round..............which would he choose? I don't know. Maybe a player who lurks here can answer that, because I'm sure it's alot easier for us old fogies to make a claim that we might not have made at 17. That's the part I struggle with most. How dare we "old fogies" ask a 17 year old kid to greatly reduce his chance at a championship in his assigned division? On the other hand, if opting up were alllowed on a yearly basis, that 17 year old kid probably already has one or two state titles already, and just may welcome the challenge. That kid is the reason why I'd have a very hard time accepting a six year commitment to opt up.
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Should a team choose to "opt up" for competitive reasons?

Should a team choose to "opt up" for competitive reasons?