Can the MHSAA enforce this??

0 Kudos

Author	Comment
EastGuRu	Can the MHSAA enforce this??		Lead	[-]
Senior Posts: 391 10/29/09 2:18 PM	Tags : None this is taken from the MHSAA Playoff Rules Paper posted on the MHSAA website: Spectator Videotaping/Photography Restrictions: A reminder to spectators who are videotaping or taking photographs at today's game: All spectator videotaping and photography for personal, non commercial use; and must be done with the understanding that the video or still images shall not be duplicated, sold, or distributed through any medium such as television or the internet. Your cooperation is appreciated. That means no YouTube vids. That means no cell phone pics......by fans. I understand this kind of policy for professional sports teams who receive big dollars for exclusive broadcast rights and logo merchandising, but HSF?? What could they legally do to you if you taped your son's game and posted it on the internet for relatives to see? Would they, Could they, Will they? Because you know some are gonna do this.
Interact My Recent Posts	Reply Quote
completehomer		#1	[url]	[-]
Senior Posts: 219 10/29/09 2:55 PM	Not really my area of expertise, but I cannot imagine the legal standing the MHSAA would have to enforce this.
Interact My Recent Posts	Reply Quote
Mr NCAA		#2	[url]	[-]
All-Searn Hall of Fame Posts: 7295 10/29/09 3:06 PM MHSAA Football Stats	They did give a person a warning over this last year. This would be the equivalent of saying that the NFL, NBA, and NCAA can't enforce that rule as well.
Interact My Recent Posts	Reply Quote
completehomer		#3	[url]	[-]
Senior Posts: 220 10/29/09 3:11 PM	Mr NCAA wrote: They did give a person a warning over this last year. This would be the equivalent of saying that the NFL, NBA, and NCAA can't enforce that rule as well. The difference being, when you're talking about the NFL, NBA, NCAA, you're talking about recording a television broadcast, which now puts you in the realm of copyrightable material (it is "art" which has been created by someone other than the person pushing "record" on their VCR/Tivo). Does the MHSAA have some sort of copyright on these games? No, that's not how it works. The video you take is something you created, not that NBC or ABC created, under contract with the NFL, which is copyrighted. They can threaten all they want; I really don't think they have a leg to stand on if they try to enforce this.
Interact My Recent Posts	Reply Quote
Mr NCAA		#4	[url]	[-]
All-Searn Hall of Fame Posts: 7296 10/29/09 3:19 PM MHSAA Football Stats	If you are at the NFL, NBA, or NCAA game, you can't take you own for profit video. That was my point, not to take it off the tube. It is the MHSAA tournament. On one of their web pages, it clearly states that you have to pay for such rights.
Interact My Recent Posts	Reply Quote
EastGuRu		#5	[url]	[-]
Senior Posts: 392 10/29/09 3:37 PM	Assuming they have a legal leg to stand on, what can they do to you for posting your sons game. Fine you? How much? Who sets that?.......Send you to jail? C'mon?........Claim lost revenue? How's that, it's after the game is over. Aside from the fear of having to hire a lawyer to defend yourself in some court in Lansing, what can they really do to you?
Interact My Recent Posts	Reply Quote
completehomer		#6	[url]	[-]
Senior Posts: 221 10/29/09 3:42 PM	Mr NCAA wrote: If you are at the NFL, NBA, or NCAA game, you can't take you own for profit video. Says who?
Interact My Recent Posts	Reply Quote
completehomer		#7	[url]	[-]
Senior Posts: 222 10/29/09 3:48 PM	Mr NCAA wrote: one of their web pages, it clearly states that you have to pay for such rights. I was unaware that everything printed on the MHSAA website is given the weight of law. If I say, on my website, that you owe me $1 million for visiting my site, does that mean you owe me $1 million? People put meaningless legal warnings and waivers on all sorts of things to deter certain activity that they have no legal right to prohibit.
Interact My Recent Posts	Reply Quote
trezdustrial		#8	[url]	[-]
All-Searn 2nd Team Posts: 1517 10/29/09 4:31 PM West Coast Mod	Let me point out he "for profit" aspect of this. Are you profiting somehow when you post your kids hi lites on U Tube? Are you selling your relatives an opportunity to view it? If your not profiting from the pictures or videos there is no issue.
Interact My Recent Posts	Reply Quote
EastGuRu		#9	[url]	[-]
Senior Posts: 393 10/29/09 7:30 PM	trezdustrial wrote: Let me point out he "for profit" aspect of this. Are you profiting somehow when you post your kids hi lites on U Tube? Are you selling your relatives an opportunity to view it? If your not profiting from the pictures or videos there is no issue. AGF, so is it your understanding that as long as you don't charge anyone to watch the video, you can post all you want?
Interact My Recent Posts	Reply Quote
completehomer		#10	[url]	[-]
Senior Posts: 223 10/29/09 8:35 PM	Again, I don't know what makes the MHSAA think they have any sort of right to dictate what you do with the video, whether you're profit motivated or not. The MHSAA, in conjuction with the host school, could certainly prohibit video taping, and ask you to leav the event if you don't comply. But after the fact, once the video is made, I don't believe the MHSAA has any say in what is done with that video. Federal courts have made it very clear that a sporting event is not copyrightable. The copyright belongs to the person who created the video. There is no question about that aspect of this. So, because the MHSAA has no rights to the video, or the game, they cannot control its disemination. Any claim the MHSAA would have would have to be based on something other than an assertion that they have any rights over the video or its content. The only possible basis for such a claim, that I can imagine, would be some sort of breach of contract...a claim that the spectator knew the rule was a condition to attending the game, and that agreement to that term was part of the consideration given as part of a "contract" to enter the game. Good luck with that theory, MHSAA. I think the MHSAA just wants something to use as an empty threat to coerce compliance with their unenforceable rule. Same analysis for an NFL or NBA game. At least that's my take on this. Last Edited By: completehomer 10/29/09 8:47 PM. Edited 1 time.
Interact My Recent Posts	Reply Quote
Searn		#11	[url]	[-]
All-Searn Hall of Fame Posts: 7829 10/29/09 8:49 PM Board Owner http://michiganhsfootball.com	There was a forum member last season that was recording playoff games and then posting them online where anyone could watch or download ... at first I believe the MHSAA actually requested he take down the videos ... . and they later sent him this email below after some back and forth > You've found a spot where our language in different publications does > not match up Based on that, one could read into it that distribution in > the manner you were performing on MLive was not prohibited. > > On the other side, here is the PA script that all sites are supposed to > read before the game: > > Spectators using video and still cameras are advised that they may only > shoot in a manner which does not obstruct the vision of other > spectators. All shooting must be done in a hand-held mode on battery > power. Tripods and electrical cords are prohibited. All spectator > videotaping and still photography must be done for private use -- any > reproduction, sale or retransmission of the images is prohibited. Your > cooperation is appreciated. > > The bottom line here is, we need to make sure our language is consistent > in all respects so there are no misunderstandings about what spectators > may do with video they shoot. Going forward all of our language will be > very clear and consistent in that regard so that we can avoid what > happened here. > > I extend to you an apology. > > John R. Johnson > Communications Director > Michigan High School Athletic Association > 1661 Ramblewood Drive > East Lansing, MI 48823 > 517-332-5046 > 517-332-4071 - Fax > 517-202-1192 - Cell Has the MHSAA cleaned up their language since last year? I have no idea ... Follow MichiganHSFootball.com on Twitter Join the MHSAA Tweet Scores Network
Interact My Recent Posts	Reply Quote
completehomer		#12	[url]	[-]
Senior Posts: 224 10/29/09 9:04 PM	I would call that a complete capitulation on the incident by the MHSAA, Searn. Last Edited By: completehomer 10/30/09 4:45 AM. Edited 1 time.
Interact My Recent Posts	Reply Quote
pavlov		#13	[url]	[-]
All-Area Posts: 413 10/30/09 12:53 PM	If the MHSAA provided some alternative for the kids and fans to preserve these games for posterity and memories (sell or distribute the games on DVD, or otherwise), I could understand the enforcement of the rule. I could understand them basically saying "don't sell/distribute that video, it's mine to sell or distribute, and you are compromising my ability to sell or distribute volume". But they don't sell or distribute it to my knowledge. Who is the victim that really loses anything in the equation where a fan or parent tapes this and puts it on youtube or elsewhere for distribution? Not sure who we are trying to protect form what exactly with this rule. With the NBA or NFL or NCAA and such, they stand to lose sales of compilation videos, hits to websites (ad revenue), and viewership of their re-broadcasts. All revenue generating.
Interact My Recent Posts	Reply Quote
applefan84		#14	[url]	[-]
Junior Posts: 137 10/30/09 1:05 PM	To the extent that the MHSAA has a copyright interest in photographs or videos of their tournament games (not regular season games), it doesn't matter whether they are trying to distribute it or make money off of it in any way. This is why it's still illegal to copy and distribute old video game ROMs that the owners of the copyright are no longer selling. The copyright belongs to the rights holder. Whether they choose to use it or not is their business. If they choose not to, then people who don't have the right have to live without it, or pressure the rights holder to start producing/selling the content (or license it).
Interact My Recent Posts	Reply Quote
completehomer		#15	[url]	[-]
Senior Posts: 225 10/30/09 1:16 PM	applefan84 wrote: To the extent that the MHSAA has a copyright interest in photographs or videos of their tournament games (not regular season games), it doesn't matter whether they are trying to distribute it or make money off of it in any way. This is why it's still illegal to copy and distribute old video game ROMs that the owners of the copyright are no longer selling. The copyright belongs to the rights holder. Whether they choose to use it or not is their business. If they choose not to, then people who don't have the right have to live without it, or pressure the rights holder to start producing/selling the content (or license it). The key here is "to the extent the MHSAA has a copyright interest in photographs or videos of their tournament games". If I am the one who takes the picture/video, then the extent of the MHSAA's copyright interest is zero, they don't have one.
Interact My Recent Posts	Reply Quote
applefan84		#16	[url]	[-]
Junior Posts: 138 10/30/09 1:23 PM	completehomer wrote: applefan84 wrote: To the extent that the MHSAA has a copyright interest in photographs or videos of their tournament games (not regular season games), it doesn't matter whether they are trying to distribute it or make money off of it in any way. This is why it's still illegal to copy and distribute old video game ROMs that the owners of the copyright are no longer selling. The copyright belongs to the rights holder. Whether they choose to use it or not is their business. If they choose not to, then people who don't have the right have to live without it, or pressure the rights holder to start producing/selling the content (or license it). The key here is "to the extent the MHSAA has a copyright interest in photographs or videos of their tournament games". If I am the one who takes the picture/video, then the extent of the MHSAA's copyright interest is zero, they don't have one. I believe what's copyrighted is what happens on the field. The sequence of light waves that are hitting the retina of your eyeball and sound waves that are hitting your eardrum. If you use your own camera to make a copy of those light waves and a microphone to record the sound waves, you're making a copy, and the owner of the right to make copies can place limits on your ability to do (or distribute) the same. If that isn't an accurate statement of the law, then there's also this: the MHSAA likely controls the rights to determine who gets to document its games, if anybody. If it doesn't want anybody to do so, it can say that you aren't allowed to as a condition of the privilege of attending and watching the game. Last Edited By: applefan84 10/30/09 1:33 PM. Edited 1 time.
Interact My Recent Posts	Reply Quote
completehomer		#17	[url]	[-]
Senior Posts: 226 10/30/09 1:30 PM	applefan84 wrote: completehomer wrote: applefan84 wrote: To the extent that the MHSAA has a copyright interest in photographs or videos of their tournament games (not regular season games), it doesn't matter whether they are trying to distribute it or make money off of it in any way. This is why it's still illegal to copy and distribute old video game ROMs that the owners of the copyright are no longer selling. The copyright belongs to the rights holder. Whether they choose to use it or not is their business. If they choose not to, then people who don't have the right have to live without it, or pressure the rights holder to start producing/selling the content (or license it). The key here is "to the extent the MHSAA has a copyright interest in photographs or videos of their tournament games". If I am the one who takes the picture/video, then the extent of the MHSAA's copyright interest is zero, they don't have one. I believe what's copyrighted is what happens on the field. The sequence of light waves that are hitting the retina of your eyeball and sound waves that are hitting your eardrum. If you use your own camera to make a copy of those light waves and a microphone to record the sound waves, you're making a copy, and the owner of the right to make copies can place limits on your ability to do (or distribute) the same. A Federal Court, in the context of NBA games, has ruled that this is not the case. The Court held that the game itself is NOT copyrightable, and that only the broadcast or description of the game was copyrightable. The MHSAA does not have a copyright interest in the tournament games...at least that is what a Federal Court says. I think the case is NBA v. Motorola (it involves real time scores on cell phones, but the Court goes into the extent to which a sporting event is copyrightable, and says that it isn't).
Interact My Recent Posts	Reply Quote
applefan84		#18	[url]	[-]
Junior Posts: 139 10/30/09 1:34 PM	completehomer wrote: applefan84 wrote: completehomer wrote: applefan84 wrote: To the extent that the MHSAA has a copyright interest in photographs or videos of their tournament games (not regular season games), it doesn't matter whether they are trying to distribute it or make money off of it in any way. This is why it's still illegal to copy and distribute old video game ROMs that the owners of the copyright are no longer selling. The copyright belongs to the rights holder. Whether they choose to use it or not is their business. If they choose not to, then people who don't have the right have to live without it, or pressure the rights holder to start producing/selling the content (or license it). The key here is "to the extent the MHSAA has a copyright interest in photographs or videos of their tournament games". If I am the one who takes the picture/video, then the extent of the MHSAA's copyright interest is zero, they don't have one. I believe what's copyrighted is what happens on the field. The sequence of light waves that are hitting the retina of your eyeball and sound waves that are hitting your eardrum. If you use your own camera to make a copy of those light waves and a microphone to record the sound waves, you're making a copy, and the owner of the right to make copies can place limits on your ability to do (or distribute) the same. A Federal Court, in the context of NBA games, has ruled that this is not the case. The Court held that the game itself is NOT copyrightable, and that only the broadcast or description of the game was copyrightable. The MHSAA does not have a copyright interest in the tournament games...at least that is what a Federal Court says. I think the case is NBA v. Motorola (it involves real time scores on cell phones, but the Court goes into the extent to which a sporting event is copyrightable, and says that it isn't). I am not an intellectual property lawyer, so I'll assume this is true. However, it seems to me that, even given the above, the MHSAA controls the conditions upon which it issues you a license to attend the game, one of which may be that you are not allowed to make and distribute a video reproduction of the game.
Interact My Recent Posts	Reply Quote
EastGuRu		#19	[url]	[-]
Senior Posts: 395 10/30/09 1:39 PM	completehomer wrote: applefan84 wrote: To the extent that the MHSAA has a copyright interest in photographs or videos of their tournament games (not regular season games), it doesn't matter whether they are trying to distribute it or make money off of it in any way. This is why it's still illegal to copy and distribute old video game ROMs that the owners of the copyright are no longer selling. The copyright belongs to the rights holder. Whether they choose to use it or not is their business. If they choose not to, then people who don't have the right have to live without it, or pressure the rights holder to start producing/selling the content (or license it). The key here is "to the extent the MHSAA has a copyright interest in photographs or videos of their tournament games". If I am the one who takes the picture/video, then the extent of the MHSAA's copyright interest is zero, they don't have one. Not to mention that in professional sports, the professional sports organization owns the players. They pay them, and within their contract to perform for the NFL team, reproduction of their performances, are owned by the professional org and sold as an exclusive or non-exclusive broadcast rights package. Most people can understand that. The MHSAA or the school do not pay these kids. They don't own their performances. The schools have no product to sell to the MHSAA in the form a broadcast rights package. Example: I can not legally sell the broadcast rights of your family reunion to a third party and then declare that you can't take pictures of your family. Now if I payed you all for those rights...different story. My kid hasn't come home with a revenue sharing check from his team yet that I know of. All that said, I'm no lawyer and I'm sure a good one could convince some judge that I'm breaking the law by breathing..........especially air that was owned by the MHSAA! Last Edited By: EastGuRu 10/30/09 1:43 PM. Edited 1 time.
Interact My Recent Posts	Reply Quote
completehomer		#20	[url]	[-]
Senior Posts: 227 10/30/09 1:44 PM	applefan84 wrote: However, it seems to me that, even given the above, the MHSAA controls the conditions upon which it issues you a license to attend the game, one of which may be that you are not allowed to make and distribute a video reproduction of the game. That is what I was suggesting in an earlier post. I think it is possible for the MHSAA to claim that the spectator breached a contractual relationship by distributing the video. To do this, the MHSAA would need to demonstrate that they had a contractual relationship with the spectator, by which, as consideration for the right to see the game, the spectator agreed to refrain from making and distributing the video. While I don't think this is impossible, I think the MHSAA would have more trouble than it is worth to try and go this route...and it is not guaranteed to have a court agree with them. I don't think they'd ever let it get this far. If you pushed back at them, I strongly suspect you'd get an apologetic email like Searn has posted above. Something along the lines of "oops, we missed a loophole in your specific case, so we won't go after you; but rest assured that our warning is legit when we do things right, and we will go after others". A likely story. The bottom line, in my opinion, is that this a statement made to try and scare people into compliance. Not unlike the statement "patent pending" printed on a product. That means absolutely nothing - either you have a patent or you don't, there is no legal difference between having a "pending" patent and having nothing at all.
Interact My Recent Posts	Reply Quote

<< Previous Topic Next Topic >>

Add Reply

Michigan-Football.com	West Michigan All Star Blog	MI HS Football Stadium	Mich. Helmet Project
Prepseer.com	Snooze's MHSAA Playoff Maps	Michigan Sports Radio - Preps	MHSAA
The Write Referee Blog	Michigan Small School Football	Upper Peninsula High School Football	Other Links

Yuku free message boards

Can the MHSAA enforce this??

Can the MHSAA enforce this??